Curse

Neo-LD · Oct 27, 2005, 02:59 AM // 02:59

obviously, flagrunners need running skills, and looking only at that fact one would think that a good runner would be a warrior using sprint etc to ferry the flag back and forth as fast as possible.

but also, to get the maximum use out of that player, he needs to be able to contribute to the main battle for short periods of time in between flag trips.
generally he wants to deal the most damge in the shortest time possible, converting all energy into damage regardless of efficiency, since you recharge during your next flag run anyways. does anyone have any bright ideas on how to do this?

i saw in a vid in TGH the runner used mind burn... which is good cus you dont care about the exhasut but that 7s of burn is sure nice.. I was thinking that also an earth ele using obs flame as fast as he could would deal good damage and he would have some spare time to work off the exhasution. Maybe a incen arrows ranger? he can incen, run the flag, and incen again with little extra time of incen sitting ready but idle.

with the somewhat strict requirements to be a good runner, there doesnt seem to be many obvious builds... ideas and brainstorming here would be appreciated.

Divine Elemental · Oct 27, 2005, 03:02 AM // 03:02

Water Trident ( KD OMFG QUICK RECHARGE )
Windborne

thsoe are basic runners skills are a must

smurfhunter · Oct 27, 2005, 03:23 AM // 03:23

i know most of a recon ranger build, so ill post what i know:

crippling shot {E}
troll unguent
imagined burden
hexbreaker
stormchaser/dodge
whilring/dryders defense/resig
(probe hex/coverup hex)
apply poison

so the idea is like this: your equipped with a self heal (TU), so you should be able to at least take on some simple NPC's and get away with it, you can run the flag (basic running skills for that).

the only extra thing here is the part about how you can effectively attack the enemy runner. what you would do is first 'sniff out' their hexbreaker with your probe (something simple like pbond), then you hit them with imagined burden. use apply poison, crippling shot. now theyre poisoned, crippled, and they move slower so just keep hitting them with arrows until they degen.

iff you are ok with energy management, you may want to put conjure phantasm as your coverup hex/sniffer since it will add to degen and help you kill the hopelessly snared runner. crippling shot is there so that you will not miss on your cripple.

in the case that you dont have to run the flag, your goal would be to snare warriors, and poison the entire team. kind of inneffective, but your main goal would be to get between the enemy flag runner and the flag, and with your snares you should be able to kill them before they can reach the post.

for example, if your losing a gvg, and the enemy advanced significantly beyond the flag post, you (thoeretically) will be able to sneak around (theres so many second routes in gvg maps), find the other runner, kill him, cap the flag, and prevent him from capping, forcing the other team back, morale, the whole 9 yards

anyway thats what i heard really....

twicky_kid · Oct 27, 2005, 03:38 AM // 03:38

gale would be a nice option. the knockdown snares and interrupts targets. other support skills like wards and aegis are great options. aegis probly being the better of the 2 seeing as you don't need to be near anyone to make it affective.

Morganas · Oct 27, 2005, 06:22 AM // 06:22

nah, aegis and heal party both have a limited range. It's pretty far, but if you're a flag runner you'll be out of it most of the time.

rii · Oct 27, 2005, 10:46 AM // 10:46

There are basically 4 main archetypes to runner builds. I’ve listed them all below, and they range from super specialized runners to hybrid runner/damagers.

The First type is the popular R/N. Expertise reduces the cost of necromancer touch skills, and this guy uses this to his advantage. Everous informs me that you can get about 50-60dps out of this guy, and we’re fairly certain skills don’t have after casts, which is a fairly important assumption (if they do they are small… I cannot see anything after a few days of looking really hard). This guy also has a constant evade and run buff, well…. 97% of the time at least. Of course, it contains self heals, condition removal/infliction, and enchant stripping. Overall, a well rounded build that can contribute to running and on the battlefield, but is vulnerable to hexers and people it can’t touch -.-

Ranger/Necromancer

Expertise: 12+3+1
Blood: 10
Death: 8

Escape [e]
Dodge
Vampiric Touch
Touch of Agony
Vile Touch
Plague Touch
Strip Enchantment
Res Sig

The next type focuses on the fact that runners often don’t have condition removal, and thus, spam’s conditions. Cripple Shot/Apply Poison is your bread and butter, and combined with storm chaser and dodge if the enemy doesn’t have condition removal you’re laughing all the way to the bank. If he does, you can steal his energy with debilitating shot, or disable said condition removal with distracting shot. Troll unguent provides limited healing, enough for a runner at least. On the battlefield, he acts as a more support based role. He can cripple fleeing foes, and enemy warriors, thus giving your monks the edge in the kiting battle. Of course, he can spam much more than they can remove, and combined with debilitating shot, your either going to end up with a monk with little energy (and little accomplished) or a big tactical advantage.

Ranger/x

Expertise: 11+2+1
Marksmanship: 10+1
Wilderness Survival: 10+1

Crippling Shot [e]
Apply Poison
Troll Unguent
Res Sig
Distracting Shot
Storm Chaser
Dodge
Debilitating Shot

These next two are much more specialized runners. This first type is the less extreme, and focuses on hexing the enemy runner out of the game. Crippling Anguish is the main hex, but can be backed up with burden if removed. Humility can take out things like Crippling Shot (see above runner) and illusion of haste makes you invulnerable to said cripple anyway. Mend ailment clears of any annoying conditions, and Conjure, whilst quite old school, can be a real pain if the enemy is stood on his own some way from any manly source of healing. Like a lot of runners, there isn’t much energy management here, since casting is few and far between in general. Drain enchant can be subbed in over some basic healing in the form of ether feast however, if you find yourself requiring energy more than expected. In battle, he can act similarly to the above character, and take out nasty warriors, this time with hexes, which are generally a bit more tricky to deal with (especially on a hex-based team, which this guy would work well in).

Mesmer/Monk

Illusion: 12+3+1
Fast Casting: 9+1
Inspiration: 9+1

Illusion of Haste
Crippling Anguish [e]
Imagined Burden
Ether Feast/Drain enchantment/Remove Hex
Signet of humility
Mend Ailment
Res Sig
Conjure Phantasm

The final type is really the runner of runners. Renewal + Iron Mist = one screwed up runner. 90% slower…. You’re going to shaft anyone really. Windborne Speed lets you fly away, leaving them biting proverbial dust, and the wards can help out a little when actually fighting, although I admit it is lackluster contribution… but… 90%!!!!!!!!!!<<<<<

Elementalist/Monk

Earth Magic: 11+2
Energy Storage: 10+1
Air: 10+1+1

Glyph of Renewal [e]
Iron Mist
Windborne Speed
Ward against Melee
Ward against Foes
Earth Attunement
Mend Ailment
Res Sig

There are several other niche builds that specific teams will find handy, but those four cover most areas. In terms of battlefield usefulness, most of the time it goes:
1. Ranger/Necromancer
2. Ranger/x
3. Mesmer/Monk
4. Elementalist/Monk

However, the quality of running capabilities is in reverse order to that, so my advice would be, dont worry about damage, get the ranger/x or the mesmer/monk, the two 'extremes' are too specialized (yes... too specialized in guild wars... but they are) - r/n will not get a touch in against any of the other three, and the el/mo doesnt do enough to justify itself.

jules · Oct 27, 2005, 06:51 PM // 18:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Expertise reduces the cost of necromancer touch skills, and this guy uses this to his advantage.

I was under the assumption that Expertise only affects ranger skills? Has anyone tested this with Necro touch skills?

Patrograd · Oct 27, 2005, 07:21 PM // 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by jules

I was under the assumption that Expertise only affects ranger skills? Has anyone tested this with Necro touch skills?

it affects the cost of all 'skills' that are listed in their description as 'skill' (as opposed to spell, attack, hex or enchantment). it is most definitely not restricted to ranger stuff - I'm sure if you searched on this forum for 'Touch ranger' you'd come up with something.

rii · Oct 27, 2005, 07:33 PM // 19:33

Its been tested heavily, and it does.

jules · Oct 27, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

Wow playing my ranger takes on a whole new dimension then

Thanks

heist23 · Oct 27, 2005, 11:36 PM // 23:36

i was thinking a warrior tank runner.

W/E

Balanced Stance
Sprint
Battle Rage [E] or Mist Form [E], or whatever that elite is that doesn't let you deal/take damage.
Executioner's Strike
Windborne Speed/Armor of Mist
Dismember
Axe Twist
Axe Rake

or, take out axe rake for a res signet.

W/R

Escape [E]
Storm Chaser
Sprint
...add whatever you want

these builds just came off the top of my head, so i've no idea if they'll work or not.

someone can certainly try, if they have a guild that GvG's often.

entropy · Oct 28, 2005, 12:09 AM // 00:09

I am almost sure escape is espertise linked...

smurfhunter · Oct 28, 2005, 01:34 AM // 01:34

it definetly is. your going to get one of the shortest stances on record if you use escape on a non-ranger primary

CAT · Oct 28, 2005, 01:25 PM // 13:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by rii

Mesmer/Monk

Illusion: 12+3+1
Fast Casting: 9+1
Inspiration: 9+1

Illusion of Haste
Crippling Anguish [e]
Imagined Burden
Ether Feast/Drain enchantment/Remove Hex
Signet of humility
Mend Ailment
Res Sig
Conjure Phantasm

I usually run a similar runner, although Illusion of Haste is a pain to keep up, I use Me/R for stormchaser, and Muddy terrain owns on the fire and sand maps. Also i like to run an Air ele(mind shock, gale, windbourne, ect) because its usually unexpected and I can help the team out tremendously, the only problem is most rangers have ranger elemantal armor~~ cant kill them unless i can dp first

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 28, 2005, 03:24 PM // 15:24

I don't get why after scanning this post, people only mention warriors as runners but there's some very good reasons why they'd be the best...

You're running the flag, wouldn't the whole enemy team be watching you since the flag from your guild hall is like a great big bullseye? [to the enemy team with brains]

Do you think that a ranger or caster can take a simultaneous assault from 8 enemy members and live? [even with good monk support]

Energy efficiency, you want to run a LOT, what skill will get you the most bang for your buck?

Since the whole enemy team will try to keep you from making that flag, who will actually live to tell the tale?

Here's an idea on a warrior/monk who can run the flag and disrupt via conditions. He's not designed to do tons of damage, but he can take the hits, disrupt, and get the flag. [which is what a flag runner is for right? If you have a flag runner that's doing only a lot of damage, isn't that wasteful since he should be moving flags instead?]

10+1+1 Swordsmanship
10+1 Strength [yay for high lasting sprint]
11 Protection Prayers

Hamstring
Sever Artery
Gash
Victory is Mine! {E}
Sprint
Mend Ailment
Convert Hexes
Res Sig

Designed to run like the wind and gather a lot of conditions for ViM!. No need for tactics since your monk will be healing you, it's the ENERGY we want. Their flag runner won't be moving long if you can get up in his face. Flag runners I think should work somewhat independantly of their team. [Seriously, are you going to be running with a teammate or 3 to move your flag or stop their flag? No... That'd be wasted resources.] In this manner, you can heavily disrupt their runner and hopefully, your team's mesmer can diversion/stuff the enemy team's attempt at Martyr, Draw Conditions, etc...

It's all on how fast your team can cover your behind as you dash in, cap the flag, bum rush their runner, cripple him, and then procede to bury the cripple under more conditions and a teammate's snare hexes...

Being a warrior means you'd live longer too right?

Yukito Kunisaki · Oct 28, 2005, 03:27 PM // 15:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by heist23

i was thinking a warrior tank runner.

W/E

Balanced Stance
Sprint
Battle Rage [E] or Mist Form [E], or whatever that elite is that doesn't let you deal/take damage.
Executioner's Strike
Windborne Speed/Armor of Mist
Dismember
Axe Twist
Axe Rake

or, take out axe rake for a res signet.

W/R

Escape [E]
Storm Chaser
Sprint
...add whatever you want

these builds just came off the top of my head, so i've no idea if they'll work or not.

someone can certainly try, if they have a guild that GvG's often.

W/E and W/R just don't seem energy friendly at all. At least ya tried...

Patrograd · Oct 28, 2005, 03:41 PM // 15:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yukito Kunisaki

Do you think that a ranger or caster can take a simultaneous assault from 8 enemy members and live?

Have you ever tried to hit a ranger using escape?

Have you ever tried to hit a warrior using sprint?

rii · Oct 28, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

I dont see how running a vim build accomplishes anything. You get a bit of health, and lots of energy. For what?
to cast sprint (dont need energy management for that at all) and to remove conditions/hexes when you happen to be in town. A zealous mod would probably accomplish that easily, except for hardline mending... but then again, vim wouldnt really keep up with that either tbh.

Most running battles degrade into the runner vs runner. A whole team taking out one guy? Just have him stand next to your monks, and have a good time. As above said, theyre not going to land a lot of hits anyway.

And disrupt via conditions? He cant use them most of the time (hes not there) and the rest of the time a quick martyr renders him useless. or mend, etc.

Your build runs into the same problems the toucher does i posted. Most runners 'with brains' wont let you near him, and no conditions means no energy for you, and theres only so much mending you can do before the guy with crippling shot smacks you down.

Personally, i would run in, cap the flag after they did, whilst killing their monks. Then when their runner comes back, theres noone left.

smurfhunter · Oct 28, 2005, 04:18 PM // 16:18

lets imagine what would happen if a mesmer meets your warrior runner at the flag stand (alone):

mesmer: I'm using Crippling Anguish on ____!
warrior: shit i forgot i cant use convert hexes on myself

'nuff said

rii · Oct 28, 2005, 04:58 PM // 16:58

What i was trying to say in fewer words ^^